Department of Telecom (DoT) today file an affidavit and requested to Telecom Dispute Settlement & Appellate Tribunal (TDSAT) to dismiss the petition of telecom operators challenging the Government Directive to stop Intra-Circle 3G Roaming via ICRA immediately.
In a strong rebuttal to Vodafone, Idea Cellular and Bharti Airtel on the issue of Intra-Circle 3G Roaming, the Department of Telecom (DoT) has alleged that service providers have “not come with clean hands” and that they have “suppressed material documents”
DoT also said that “Intra-circle 3G roaming pact by operators is “in violation of various terms and conditions of Cellular Mobile Telecom Service License and various terms and conditions of the Notice Inviting Applications (NIA) dated 25.02.2010 for 3G/BWA Auction”.
On 22nd December,2011, The DoT asked Bharti Airtel, Vodafone Essar and Idea Cellular to called off their mutual agreement for 3G Roaming and stop 3G Roaming services via ICRA with in 24 hours in telecom circles where they had failed to win 3G spectrum in the auction held in 2010.
Bharti Airtel, Vodafone and Idea Cellular who have entered into mutual agreement with each other to offer 3G services in the name of intra-circle 3G roaming and selling their 3G products and new connections even in circles where they do not have 3G spectrum/licence, challenged the DoT’s decision before the TDSAT on 23rd December,2011.
dskushwaha January 12, 2012 at 9:29 pm
Similar to liquor business partnership, If DOCOMO is investing in Aircel or vice verse, then there should be no problem from DOT or TRAI. But like the operators are using ICRA to provide services in each others area, you are sure to be caught for selling liquor in a non licensed area. (If you are to sell liquor in some area of Kolkata you cannot open a liquor shop with that license or using your name in Siliguri because your friend is having licence there and you two have mutual agreement).
Me too..
Saptarshi Roy January 8, 2012 at 12:57 am
You will see gentlemen, the government will not be able to stop this ICRA. This will be the end of the story.
Saptarshi Roy January 8, 2012 at 12:54 am
This should not be difficult to comprehend. Let us not get diverted from the core issue. I have mentioned one thing consistently at various places in this forum – “Once spectrum is sold then it is up to the buyer of that spectrum to utilize it optimally within the ambit of the law.” Dskushwaha, let me give you simple examples so that it is easier for our readers to grasp this. You recharge your phone and get a specific talk-time. Now, will it sound straight to you if the government comes and tells you how to use that talk-time? Yes or no? No, obviously, because you have the liberty to use that talk-time in what-ever way you feel like (within the ambit of the law) and mind you, sir, just like you said earlier that “guidelines are necessary to use ‘The Rare Spectrum’,” I can also say that ‘talk-time’ is also rare and guidelines are necessary to use that wisely too but it doesn’t and shouldn’t work out that way.
Coming to liquor licenses. A friend of mine has a liquor license to run an off shop but he cannot operate the business on his own, partially because he doesn’t have enough funds or business acumen or contacts and hence he makes me a partner and together we invest and run the off-shop. Now, will the government come and ask my friend to close the business because he has entered into a partnership with me in respect to the off-shop license? No, again.
In case you know what “sub-let” means, I am sure you will find this concept very relevant here. Some landlords allow sub-letting while others do not. It is mentioned in the contract/agreement. This is why I am repeating that if the paperwork is unclean, that should be a cause of concern and nothing else.
I hate it when people make simple things sound complex.
dskushwaha January 3, 2012 at 9:48 pm
update on 3G ICRA:
thehindu.com/news/national/article2771488.ece
dskushwaha January 3, 2012 at 5:54 pm
There are several unlimited talk plans by different operators in different circles (like reliance, Tata Indicom, BSNL). The customer enters into a contract with the operator to use these plans for non-commercial purpose, and is allowed to use the services as per his choice.
But the above said contract becomes void if the said customers starts running a P.C.O. by using these unlimited call plans of 2-3 or more operators and gives much cheaper call rates (he will surely be able to do so) to its customers than the other P.C.O. operators. Will his P.C.O. be legal
Now answer if the DOT’s move is wrong?
dskushwaha January 3, 2012 at 5:46 pm
If I am correct, the definition of selling should be like this :” providing goods (physical) and services (manual labour, intellectual) to somebody in return of money (monetary system), goods or services (barter system)”
The same is done by these operators, so the word selling is correct in this context.
And for monitoring the <optimal utilistation of resources there are several govt. agencies and I think they are doing their job.
I will explain DOT’s move with the analogy you given (garment business). Suppose there is a system (or law) in which garment manufacturer have to pay for the license to sell its products in a state (as this the case with liquor). West Bengal license fee costs Rs. 5000, Delhi’s Rs. 4000 and likewise for other states. In short license fee for all the states costs him Rs. 50,000. But our manufacturer paid for licence in West Bengal only. Does he be allowed to sell its products in other states using an agreement with its partner in those states and making fool to those manufacturer who paid for the license fee for more than one states?
The word ‘license raj’ is used by you because in discussion it is used several times.
But the license system is good for customers, operators and for the Nation. It gives guidelines on the way to use The Rare Spectrum. In this world of economics charging money for these guidelines and authority to use this rare spectrum is not wrong. If by choosing to pay limited money one wants that it should get unlimited usage, how can this be justified.
Saptarshi Roy January 3, 2012 at 3:31 pm
@Saurabh
I got your point and I agree with it. In the ‘unlikely’ and ‘unfortunate’ event that this ICRA deal is scrapped off, the operators must reimburse it’s customers for equipments rendered redundant with this deal.
Saurabh January 3, 2012 at 3:15 pm
@Saptarshi Roy
You are not getting dskushwaha point.
Operators are not only allowing customers to use 3G in non-licensed area but also selling own-branded 3G mobile phones and data cards. Like in Haryana, Airtel is selling its 3G data cards for Rs.1500-1750, which is a non-licensed area for them. Say if ICRA gets ban, these data cards will become useless as customers will no longer have acees to Idea/Vodafone 3G network and bound to use Airtel 2G network. This will incur loss to the customers in one way.
If they had allowed customers only to latch on partner network using their mobile phones or unlocked data cards, it would have made sense. But selling own-branded data cards doesn’t make sense.
Saptarshi Roy January 3, 2012 at 3:02 pm
Sir, I understand that garments are not the same as telecom licenses. If you ‘read’ my comments carefully you will see that the Kolkata garment manufacturer enters into an agreement with it’s Delhi counterpart and this agreement encompasses the fees and covers other necessary formalities that we pay to each other. The government does not or rather should not have any say to it.
Coming to ‘impact’. Let me ask you this, if the Kolkata seller expertises in silk materials and the Delhi seller expertises in cotton fabrics, would it not be beneficial for the public if the Kolkata seller makes silk materials available in Delhi and the Delhi manufacturer providing cotton fabrics available to the masses in Kolkata?
I would rather say that your logic and reasoning is ‘stoopid’. People are simply inviting the ‘license raj’ once again without understanding the market economics.
To reiterate, if the paperwork is unclean, that should be a matter of dispute and nothing else.
Esmail January 3, 2012 at 2:58 pm
I am using MTNL 3G service in Mumbai (3.5G HSDPA to be precise) and I get actual downlink speeds of 2.3Mbps (Promissed 3.6Mbps) throughout the day, low latency around 150ms on an average, no network drops. I use long term validity prepaid plan in which for Rs.4500 I get HSDPA access for 180 days which makes it effectively Rs.750 per month for unlimited browsing and downloading at 3G speeds without any FUP whatsoever. Name one private telco who is providing any plan comparable to this. I dont know about BSNL but MTNL mumbai is surely the best.
Saptarshi Roy January 3, 2012 at 2:53 pm
@dskushwaha
“Operators are selling connections indeed but that encompasses 2G services and they are only borrowing 3G services in circles where they have spectrum for providing 2G services.”
Using the word ‘selling’ here as said by Anandh would be incorrect. The operators are not selling but rather ‘providing’ 3G services in circles where they have not won any licence to provide 3G services. Like this they are providing optimum utilisation of resources over a pact with the operators who have won 3G licenses over that circle.
Why raise a hullabaloo over it?
dskushwaha January 3, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Indian Govt. is not a CHOR (thief). It’s only some politicians running the govt.
In democracy you are also the part of the govt. (By the People,……., ……).
If you say not to give taxes to the govt. because that money is not utilised properly, then let everybody make their own liquor and die, everybody should install their own wireless communication system and then everybody will speak and nobody will be able to here (because of the spectrum).
So dear, in this issue of ICRA it is the spectrum (which is materially nothing) which is controlled by the Govt. for its citizen. If that spectrum is let to used by everybody (in this issue by non licensed operators), this will hamper the security of the country and profit and network stability of those operators who have paid for it.
dskushwaha January 3, 2012 at 2:18 pm
Or better, Operators should stop selling 3G products in circles where they don’t have license and transfer the connection to its partner operator with talktime, data etc. benefits intact, if the customer wishes so. After all it is also the partner operator’s fault in this scenario and it should bear the responsibility.
M@yur January 3, 2012 at 1:33 pm
@Saurabh
Agree with you…people should support the move by the government against the illegal icra…
sunil January 3, 2012 at 12:37 pm
@Karthik Kumar V G
Good analysis
SADANAND KUMAR January 3, 2012 at 11:32 am
dear all
wish you happy new year. ohh no roaming kab se free ho raha hai????
pls inf. me.
Saurabh January 3, 2012 at 9:34 am
I know very well how you got this 10GB data plans. Don’t worry this all will be stopped soon.
Abhijith January 3, 2012 at 9:32 am
Icra should be applied for both 2g and 3g operators . . Look paper work clearly sure many flaws , . . An another scam ill arise . . This is a government drama . . Dont believe them . .
Saurabh January 3, 2012 at 9:31 am
I agree with dskushwaha. Don’t support operators blindly. I’m also against this ICRA and those who are criticizing Govt. or DoT should understand the matter first. We keep on criticizing Govt. for its inability to take actions many a times but when they do take it, we again doing the same. Don’t you want our system to be transparent and clean? Govt. is not asking for money here. They are just clarifying to operators that a thing which is illegal, is illegal. i.e why they want it to be stopped.
Most of the customers here, especially those using 3G with their operators via ICRA, are terming DoT move as absurd. Every private telco has same 3G data plans then what’s the problem in using 3G with those having licenses in your circle?
But the main thing is, in some areas/circles people are getting free access to 3G data services in circle where their operator is sharing network with the one having license and they don’t want it to be stopped (especially the Airtel users).
Go and google “Free 3G with Airtel” and there are hundreds of forum/blogs telling the tricks to use free 3G. As a traker, I keep tracking such illegal activities by users and let the operator know all about this. How cheap these people are, who are looting operators. Just because of that bul*s*** people, those who are paying are suffering slow speed problems.
As far as product selling is concerned, those operators who have sold their data cards or mobile phones in circles where they don’t have license should provide unlocking codes to customers in case DoT wins otherwise it will be customer’s loss.
bharat January 3, 2012 at 2:12 am
No body wants to tie up with bsnl n mtnl( ahem ahem…. pathetic service …ahem ahem)? dont they have pan india license together ? if ppl say that bsnl is in loss why is it not in favour of ICRA? it can’t have good paper work? Utilize the spectrum to full extent! BSNL can recover from losses which will lead to more cheaper tariff! customer ka fiada ! Support ICRA!(message to BSNL and MTNL supporters)
Jaago AAM aadmi jaago government ko aur chori karne say roko! Make ICRA Legal?
dev January 3, 2012 at 1:49 am
DOT is absoluity right.you can provide roaming but you cant sell products.But the only question arrise how come T24 & virgin mobile sell there products without having a 2G licence,using TTSL network all over india?
How this is different from this issue? except being 2G & 3G
DUANE January 3, 2012 at 12:52 am
@Saptarshi Roy
@ SAPTARSHI
Your example is stupid! Comparing GARMENTS to TELECOM LICENSES… does the Kolkata seller pay any fees/license to the DELHI seller? Do the public at large get impacted if the Kolkata seller does not sell in Delhi (or vice versa). Obviously NO.
dskushwaha January 2, 2012 at 11:21 pm
Actually, we are not supporting blindly these operators. Only those people, whose money is at stake due to DOT’s move (because they have purchased some services from such operators) are only supporting them. (I am sympathetic with COOLBUDD and others)
dskushwaha January 2, 2012 at 11:12 pm
DOT banned only selling of products and not on roaming, so people with their DOCOMO 3G connection (example you have mentioned) will not be out of 3G coverage till DOCOMO has agreement with some 3G operator in Delhi. This is fairly legal.
International Operators (I would rather say- foreign operators)do provide roaming on international roaming but they never sell their products in a country where they don’t have licence to do so. Indian operators are also provide international roaming with their partner networks, but they never sell their product in China, Malaysia, USA, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. neither the foreign operators sell their products in India.
According to your example of Verizon, the Indian operator who have tie ups with Verizon do not sell their services and products in USA, neither Verizon do the same in India.
Karthik Kumar V G January 2, 2012 at 11:01 pm
@Anandh
Just a quick question, why Tata & Aircel cancelled their ICRA deal when Airtel, Vodafone & Idea are fighting for this ICRA deal, I think Tata & Aircel realized their mistake and they corrected it. Also why MTNL is not selling their SIM in Rest of India when they have the ICRA pact with BSNL for roaming, I think both MTNL & BSNL is following the Government rules. I think we are blindly supporting Airtel, Vodafone & Idea, DOT has never disagreed for roaming but the problem here is they are misusing the ICRA and selling their product which has created the problem. When Idea does not have license in Tamil Nadu how they can sell their Idea 3G products in Tamil Nadu. Airtel & Vodafone can help Idea 3G customers from other circle to roam in Tamil Nadu. From my point Government should allow the MVO concept with some fees. For example idea 3g can be a MVO operator in Tamil Nadu using Airtel & Vodafone network. This is similar to Virgin Mobile & T24 Mobile in Tata Docomo network.
Saptarshi Roy January 2, 2012 at 10:45 pm
Sir, could you please be kind enough to point out how is it illegal if I start manufacturing in Delhi at my competitor’s plant if the latter agrees to it and we go ahead and share our resources and cater to the public?
You also say that operators cannot sell connections where it hasn’t paid for spectrum. Sir, operators are selling connections indeed but that encompasses 2G services and they are only borrowing 3G services in circles where they have spectrum for providing 2G services. Your logic is flawed when you say that operators cannot sell connections where it doesn’t have spectrum. Today, Tata Docomo doesn’t have spectrum to operate in Delhi and so nobody would expect them to provide 3G services there as an example of what I’ve stated above. Also, going by your logic, when Tata Docomo subscribers from other circles enter Delhi, they should also not be allowed to use their phone (2G services) because (going by your logic again) roaming agreement is off-limits.
Sir, with all due respect please do some research on the Internet and see how many operators worldwide provide 3G service on International Roaming. It’s countless depending on the number of countries and the number of service providers worldwide. Today if I am a Mobile Network Operator who provides 3G services in India and I tie up with Verizon so that when my subscribers go to the US, they are able to use 3G services in the Verizon network, nobody including the US Govt. or the Indian Govt. should say anything as long as the paperwork is clean.
Coming to the paperwork, if the service providers are concealing anything, then that should be the cause of concern and nothing else.
I rest my case here. In a democracy, it’s the people who knows what’s best for them.
Anandh January 2, 2012 at 9:28 pm
well said dude. Tamilnadu favourite operator of older time aircel network restored partially from 9 am today morning. Aircel network failed in most place of cuddalore, pondicherry & vilupuram for the past 4 days due to thane cyclone
Anandh January 2, 2012 at 9:24 pm
the deal will not illegal untill you start manufacturing in delhi partner plant. Are you mad? The problem is not about giving roaming but selling connections where you are not paid for spectrum. Operators always found loop holes in laws and stole money from public. Cancel licence of all operators and their 3g spectrum w.e.f without any compensation, then things will come clear.
akhilesh January 2, 2012 at 9:08 pm
OH NO! MY AIRTEL 3G 10GB PLAN ON( ROOMING IDEA 3G NETWORK)
Krishnakumar January 2, 2012 at 9:04 pm
@joseph joy christopher
Govt infrastructure is robust than any other operator.Thane cyclone hit at coastal areas of tamilnadu on 30 Dec 2011.BSNL is the only operator gave connectivity in all those areas evenwhen tempest was blowing.There is no electricity after three days.Nobody have battery charge in their cell phones.BSNL landline serves the connectivity so superbly.BSNL landline works without failure and no need of electricity.Its broadband also works without a single second of failure.How you people can say govt infrastructure is not good?
COOLBUDDY January 2, 2012 at 8:53 pm
if govt wins,there is no 3g for me
Saptarshi Roy January 2, 2012 at 8:42 pm
A lot has been said and written in the media about this issue now and so let me share my two penny here.
This is sheer nonsense and stupidity on the part of DoT. Let me give you an example. I manufacture and sell garments in Kolkata and another competitor manufactures and sells garments in Delhi. I do not have a market in Delhi, but wish to sell my merchandise there and my competitor in Delhi who doesn’t have any presence in Kolkata, wants to set up his distribution unit here. Now, we get into an agreement of some sort wherein I allow him to sell his merchandise here in Kolkata and in return, he allows me to sell my merchandise in Delhi. Will any sane person call this deal illegal of any sort?
Now, coming to the third angle of this story. Another manufacturer (DoT in this case) already has a garment manufacturing and selling set-up both in Kolkata and Delhi and now he fears that we are a threat to his business and hence he objects to our deal and files a petition to halt this deal. Will it be a free economy or a monopoly (by Dot) then?
I would appreciate if the active members of this forum comes up and debate on this rather then siding with DoT and calling this deal by the operators illegal without any coherent logic.
Steve January 2, 2012 at 8:30 pm
if government alows this. then it will be a huge loss for BSNL
joseph joy christopher January 2, 2012 at 8:11 pm
friends government infra structure is not good enough to punish these operator’s….
Ritesh January 2, 2012 at 7:48 pm
There is no discussion about mobile operating system on telecomtalk.Many of us want a discussion over mobile operating system.Symbian,Android,Apple,Blackberry,Windows,which one is best?So that we can get ideas of differnt people from all over india.I hope telecom people will fulfill this request.
Pshant January 2, 2012 at 7:42 pm
I hope the operators wins
The governement is useless, Just trying to make steal money from these operators. Imagine government winning:- people of that circle becomes technologically backward or will be at mercy of the single operator who has licence in that area.
Also if operators are fined, then the money gets transferred to a swiss account
You decide
SANDEEP January 2, 2012 at 7:13 pm
Lets see how it ends,may be government wants some more money by this issue,election is coming na,another method of fund raising
tejas January 2, 2012 at 6:54 pm
good move…these operators r acting too smart.